郎咸平说反腐败 用招标不行 得用流程控制zt

gzztitc

<p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10&#46;0pt"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font face="Times New Roman">  </font></span></span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-bidi-font-size: 10&#46;0pt; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">郎咸平提出治腐新招：用工序流程来防治贪腐</span></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 18pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 10&#46;0pt"><font face="Times New Roman"> <span lang="EN-US"><p /></span></font></span></b></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">   </span></font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">京华论坛</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </span>1#<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">  </span></font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">发表于</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> 11-16<span style="mso-spacerun: yes">    </span></font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">振翅高飞</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　</span><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">郎咸平接受陆新之专访：用工序流程来防治贪腐</span><font face="Times New Roman"> <span lang="EN-US"><p /></span></font></b></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font face="Times New Roman">    </font></span></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">近期几乎每天都会上台湾媒体头条的陈水扁家庭涉嫌贪腐案，对于这件事引发人们对于防治贪污腐败的争论，我认为用一套严谨的工序将权力流程化，即可以防治贪腐。以下是我和陆新之的部分对话，现整理出，希望能和大家探讨！</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">台湾阿扁一家人的丑闻，你怎么看？</span><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">我们对这个事件的评论很多，有一个本质的意义我们忽略了，那就是陈水扁的心态，他就是一个过去台湾那种黑道老大的心态，弟兄们都是我养的，因此我搞一大堆钱来，给你几百万，你们去竞选，所以基本上在民进党这么多的竞选公职人员当中，大概都收过陈水扁的钱，这不是一个简单的贪污受贿的问题，而是一个黑道老大作风的问题，掏出所有的资源给你们，你们去竞选，就变成这么样一个团队。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">你说的这个让我想到，台湾社会表面上看是民主、有选举，可是你到最内部的核心，说白了还是刘、关、张《三国演义》那一套。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">没错。中国虽然有几千年的文官制度，但是最大的问题是潜规则在运作，而不是规则。规则是摆在表面上给人家看的，拿潜规则给人家运作，台湾也是一样，虽然台湾经过所谓的体制变革，但是我跟你说潜规则的意识并没有改变，那种黑道老大式的作风没有改变。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">民主改革也不能改变潜规则？</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">我们很多人说，体制要怎么样才能防止腐败，都搞错了。我最近提出一个新的思维，就是现在我们国内的官员，部分人贪腐，绝对不是全部，但是每个人都很忙，一个礼拜干八天，一天干十四五个小时，到底是什么让部分人贪污的？我的结论是</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">公共产品的供应不足导致这点。什么叫做公共产品的供应不足呢？就用彩电为例，在我们国家彩电脱销时期，</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">台彩电有</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">1000</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">人要，所以我们售货员就很忙，一千个人忙得不得了，一个礼拜干八天，可是更重要的是什么？当决定这台彩电卖给你，你给售货员一个选择的权利，他就可以收到十块钱好处。只要这个售货员有选择的机会，他就必定贪污。如果你把他选择的权利给剥削了以后，他就不会贪污了，他就没有可能贪污。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　我再举个例子，你看新加坡按照国际来评比，它是最清廉最高效的政府。为什么这么清廉？只有一个原因，什么原因呢？建立起一套流程工序，把领导的选择权全部分散掉。举个例子，那就是设立一个规则，什么规则呢？你不是有一个彩电吗？不是有一千人要嘛，好了，设立一个规则，什么规则呢？那就是先来先到，我就收这一百个人，你们进来别人都回家。</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">个人要</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">台彩电，因此公共产品的供需就平衡了。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">不过我们早就在实施招标的方法，但是问题是招标它有猫腻啊。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">招标不行，因为缺乏一个法制化可执行的流程工序制度。为什么我们官员这么忙？原因就是</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">1000</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">个人要</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">台彩电，今天你用抽签的方式选择</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> 100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">个人的话，你就不忙了，同时由于</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">台彩电给</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">100</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">个人，你也没有选择的机会，因此你没有贪污了。看看香港，香港就是有这种制度，因此香港的官员</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> 5</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">点钟准时下班，一年还有一两个月的休假。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">土地在香港招标是最公开的。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">香港是最公开透明的，香港土地怎么批复？第一人只收照片，你照片交了没有，交了，</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">OK</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">。第二个人，说看看你营业执照有没有，有的话合不合规定，合的话，</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">OK</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">，盖个章，叫第三个人。第三个人再查，查一个证明，</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">OK</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">。到最后一个人，记录什么？公开竞价。领导就不需要批了。领导不需要批，它就没有选择的机会，因此他不可能贪。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">说白了好像是分工明确。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">分工明确，不需要绕这么多、经过这么多的痛苦之后来做这件事。所以我们现在要做的就要把领导的选择权力工序流程化，分几个关口，这个过程必须要有正义的过程，严格的法制规定。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman""><font size="3">　　比如在香港办一个证件，所有的公务人员就像机器一样。到这儿来给我一个表格贴照片，然后到下一个窗口。</font></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　陆新之</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">对，你给他贪，他都不敢贪。</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">　　郎咸平</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">他敢怎么办？有一个工序，有很强的法制的监管，所以这就是程序的正义。虽然像机器人一样。但是反贪腐特别有效。</span><font face="Times New Roman"> </font></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font face="Times New Roman">    </font></span></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">保存时间</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:<chsdate w:st="on" isrocdate="False" islunardate="False" day="16" month="11" year="2008">2008-11-16</chsdate> </font></span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt"><font size="3"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes"><font face="Times New Roman">    </font></span></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">原标题</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman">:</font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">郎咸平提出治腐新招：用工序流程来防治贪腐</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> - </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">天下杂谈</span><span lang="EN-US"><font face="Times New Roman"> - </font></span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 宋体; mso-ascii-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-hansi-font-family: "Times New Roman"">京华论坛</span></font></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 21pt; mso-char-indent-count: 2&#46;0"><span lang="EN-US"><a href="http://bbs&#46;qianlong&#46;com/thread-1504106-1-2&#46;html"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3">http://bbs&#46;qianlong& ... 06-1-2&#46;html</font></a></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; TEXT-INDENT: 21pt; mso-char-indent-count: 2&#46;0"><span lang="EN-US"><p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> </font></p></span></p>

plumliu

每个人仅负责一个特定的环节，职责明确，权力分散。工序化的核心：分工明确、权力分散。

heluhua

郎咸平:没错。中国虽然有几千年的文官制度，但是最大的问题是潜规则在运作，而不是规则。规则是摆在表面上给人家看的，拿潜规则给人家运作，台湾也是一样，虽然台湾经过所谓的体制变革，但是我跟你说潜规则的意识并没有改变，那种黑道老大式的作风没有改变。
    说明了改革的关键。包括招标领域和其他方面。很多人都在谈论解决招标当中或社会中的问题，不少人还是说如何严加管理，结果越管越腐败，越管越乱，采用简化公共程序的方法就可以。

汉瓦

郎咸平:我们很多人说，体制要怎么样才能防止腐败，都搞错了。我最近提出一个新的思维，就是现在我们国内的官员，部分人贪腐，绝对不是全部，但是每个人都很忙，一个礼拜干八天，一天干十四五个小时，到底是什么让部分人贪污的？我的结论是:公共产品的供应不足导致这点。什么叫做公共产品的供应不足呢？就用彩电为例，在我们国家彩电脱销时期，100台彩电有1000人要，所以我们售货员就很忙，一千个人忙得不得了，一个礼拜干八天，可是更重要的是什么？当决定这台彩电卖给你，你给售货员一个选择的权利，他就可以收到十块钱好处。只要这个售货员有选择的机会，他就必定贪污。如果你把他选择的权利给剥削了以后，他就不会贪污了，他就没有可能贪污。
某些招标办的官员说:那我抽签定标了,这样谁也没有选择权了,谁也不会贪污了,也不可能贪污了.

于是乎,目前许多地方盛行抽签定标......